♥ PosetteForever ♥

Today I had to disable access to two of the download items. This is of two texture packages for use on the Poser 4 version of Posette that were uploaded by a new member named <a class="post-url" href="http://www.posetteforever.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4332">Plus3D</a>. <br /> <br /> They are renaming and repackaging of the textures created Staale, with possible minor modifications. Yet they are listed in our downloads data base as the creation of Plus3D. <br /> <br /> Staale, the copyright owner has placed specific provisions in the licensing of the textures that that they and any derived textures can only be distributed under certain conditions, those condition are not compatible with their inclusion in the Posetteforever downloads. It is possible that special provisions have been granted to Plus3D by Staale, if so that needs to be documented. To determine if this is the case, I have contacted Staale about this to determine their legal status. <br /> <br /> The textures in this issue are <a class="post-url" href="http://www.posetteforever.com/dload.php?action=file&file_id=412">Ana for Posette</a> and <a class="post-url" href="http://www.posetteforever.com/dload.php?action=file&file_id=411">Realistic Posette texture</a> <br /> <br /> Once we hear from Staale we will know to return the files to download with notation of special permission or to delete them as violations.

Maybe what we need to do is ask the one who modified the texture if that was indeed granted by the original owner? If you do that by contacting the original owner and stopping the download after the person was so kind to put it here and the person was in the right by a granted permission, they might be offended by this quick action. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" />

It says on the texture that as long as the name of the original creator is written on the texture and the name of who modified it is written on the texture it is ok to redistribute freely, as long as you follow the rules written on the texture. <br /> <br /> Plus3d has followed the rules, until she uploaded it to pf. She is allowed to redistribute it from her site, not pf. <br /> <br /> One of the rules, written on the texture, is that a password or membership is not be needed to download the texture or modifications of the texture. <br /> When the texture is uploaded here, a membership including a password is needed to download the texture. <br /> <br /> I think it is a great modification and a legal modification that she has uploaded, but it is against Stale's rules to have it in our downloads. It is ok by his rules to have it on her own site. <br /> <br /> Why simply not tell her the thruth? it is not allowed to be here by stale's rules. It was kind of her to upload it here, when the download at her site was not working. But according to stale's rules it can not stay here. <br /> <br /> <br /> I think that pangor took the correct action when he stopped the download. It is allways better to be safe then sorry. <br /> __________________________________________________________________________________________ <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Generally speaking (not talking about plus3d now) if someone was redistributing something that was mine without my knowledge or consent, i would have liked the site staff to step up to the plate and stop the download and ask me, if they suspected that all might not be right. The person redistributing can lie about having permission or it could be an innocent reason like not knowing better. <br /> <br /> If i were the person that uploaded something, and i was told that the staff of the site were unsure of my right to distribute it, i would not be offended. Why would i be? The site would be protecting it self and the original creator. And if i am the original creator or if i have the creator's permission, they would be protecting me. If i have permission and they check with the creator, it would be known that i was telling the truth and the download could be put back on. <br /> <br /> The staff could explain the reasons for their actions and there would be no need to be offended. The choice to check something just to be sure, it is not a personal attack on someone, it is not being mean. It is being careful and protecting everyone involved, including the person uploading it.

Thank you very much pangor and Thilda, I hadn't noticed the "password" thing <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif" alt="" /> . I'll wait for the reply of stahlratte, but because I know that he doesn't like our site very much I doubt that he'll say "yes" <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/very_sad.gif" alt="" /> <br /> <br /> However I'll put the link to plus3d files in our forum <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thilda said: If i were the person that uploaded something, and i was told that the staff of the site were unsure of my right to distribute it, i would not be offended. Why would i be? <br /> <br /> <br /> I agree but I wasn't sure anyone made contact with the person in question. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" /> <br /> Also, I think it was us who asked them to post the download to the site if I am correct on that. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_shifty.gif" alt="" /> <br /> So without thinking and a kind heart they came here to download it. I seen the person yesterday as I was looking threw the site. <br /> But yes Thilda you are right. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" />

I'll post to plus3d explaining her what happens in the best and gentle mode that i can <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_shifty.gif" alt="" />

yes kenny you are right, we asked her. So really there is less reason for her to be upset, we because we were the ones who did wrong and not her. And taking it down is protecting her. <br /> <br /> <br /> Tell her that it was kind of her to upload the texture to pf. But that we missed the rule on the texture. and that because of that rule, we need to remove it. Tell her that it was our misstake and not hers. Tell her about the membership and password that stale is against. Tell her that it is ok to have the freebie on her site. <br /> Tell her what u think of the texture, the modifications to the face are good - my personal opinion.

This is what I wrote: <br /> <br /> <br /> From: Tormentor <br /> To: plus3d <br /> Date: 2007-07-03 08:36:50 <br /> Subject: Some problems with your files at Posetteforever <br /> <br /> Hi Irlinda, there is a discussion about the textures that you've uploaded at Posetteforever, I tell you what's about: <br /> Your textures are based on Staale work and he says on the texture that as long as the name of the original creator is written on the texture and the name of who modified it is written on the texture it is ok to redistribute freely, so to this point we have no problems. <br /> <br /> But one of the rules, written on the texture, is that a password or membership is not be needed to download the texture or modifications of the texture and the problem is that a password is needed to download freebies from Posetteforever <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/sad.gif" alt="" /> <br /> <br /> One of our administrator wrote to Staale asking for permission to share your modified works on Posetteforever, so till he replies we "suspended" your files, I hope only temporarily. <br /> <br /> I know a little staale (he calls himself Stahlratte on Posetteforever) and I don't think that he'll say "yes share them", but this is not a very big problem, even if we can't have them on our freebie list, I'll add your site containing your Posette textures on our links list of the Posette database of our forum, with the thumbnails <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" /> <br /> <br /> I'm very sad about it <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/sad.gif" alt="" /> because i would like to have your textures hosted on Posetteforever, but we have to keep an eye opened on copyrights in order to avoid problems. I hope you'll understand and however nothing is lost, maybe staale will give his permission... <br /> <br /> Take care <br /> <br /> Tormie

Ok everyone. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/lmao.gif" alt="" /> Just an update. You might want to go to Renderosity and check out the free download stuff. Under plus3d download stuff when you do a search it has "Ana for Posette" for download. But! The download has a diffirent download zip. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" /> <br /> When you download it. The zip will say Ana for Posette_30165 . It will unzip. So now this gets a bit stranger. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" />

It's not strange, I noticed it and it was also the first file uploaded at Posetteforever, then I asked her to correct the problem and she made another zip but maybe the link on her site has not been modified. <br /> <br /> Plus I'm the one that asked her to upload her files to Posetteforever so the fault is mine <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif" alt="" /> , she only posted a render with her texture on the Eveena thread on Rosity, helping me in the debate against pornguy dphoadley <br /> <br /> <a class="post-url" href="http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2702261" target="_blank">http://www.renderosity.com/mod/foru...read_id=2702261</a> <br /> <br /> So if someone is guilty of something it's me <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif" alt="" /> I can confirm her good faith. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_hand.gif" alt="" />

What I meant was that I found the zip file and it was odd that they had diffirent zips and wasn't modified on her web site. But yes this is a great bunch to work with. It's know problem with what you did Davide. It's just your kind heart leaking threw. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/wink.gif" alt="" /> Now who wants Pizza? <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" />

You mean that BIG Pizza left all alone on the kitchen's table <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_shifty.gif" alt="" /> ? <br /> <br /> It escaped using the back door <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_whistle.gif" alt="" /> <br /> <br /> <br /> (*burp*) <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif" alt="" />

I'm going for a little catnap, but I want to give you all a suggestion: in the past we went to a conclusion too fast and because of this we had a lot of troubles. What has been made unapproving the files was the right thing to do but before going to a conclusion it's better to discuss further action between us, this is the rieason why this staff forum exists: if you remember I made it exactly for cases like this one. In this case, knowing nothing about the "background" one could think that an unknown user registered at the site and uploaded copyrighted material but it's not what happened: I asked her to do it, I created the account myself because she was not able to do it and probably she doesn't know all the complicated rules Stahlratte wants in order to share his works...

Some times you just can't keep a good Pizza around very long. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Actually unless she can't read english, she did know about stale's rules. They are written on the texture that she modified, and they are still written on the texture in her zipp. She followed the rest of the rules. <br /> My guess she didn't remember it or think of it when asked to upload here. <br /> <br /> <br /> slightly ot: <br /> <br /> Link to stales morphs and textures. <br /> <br /> <a class="post-url" href="http://home.online.no/~kjellil/Index-AllStuff.htm" target="_blank">http://home.online.no/~kjellil/Index-AllStuff.htm</a>

Thank you Thilda! <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" />

It is no good to ask the uploader about permissions when the actual copyright owner who's clear terms have been violated is contactable. After all one could be ingorant or lie. We have had that happen before, resulting in our temporary acceptance of an unreleased now commerical work. <br /> <br /> Sending the email is to gather the facts in the case, the background of the upload items. The information of the restrictions may have been forgotten at time of upload, but still, PF was at risk. If the upload was done on independent inititive or by request, it is the uploader's task to only upload items that they have a right to so do. If there is a clause in the license that says otherwise, then the uploader has to document that variance. This is standard in all copyright protected field. To fail to take immediate action on discovery of a problem or a possible violation, will place PF at risk. Recall that if Staale were to learn of this upload through others, he could enforce the other parts of his statements in the readme of his original. for legal and financial punishment of PF and of the uploader. Also by not openly in the uploads database stating his contibution to the items, may be seen as an additional violation if he were to choose to be picky against PF in this matter. The action taken was to settle to facts and none of it was permanent or undoable. There is also wording in the licence that will permit them to be offered here at PF but not in the form that they have thus far been offered. <br /> <br /> The terms are no obscure and the evidence by her other actions implies that she knew and understood the license in the issue. It may have been an oversight by her. She may have been granted permission to disregard that clause. Or she may not have cared. There are other options too that are not so nice to consider, so I will not now speak of them so that they will not distract from the issue. <br /> <br /> How or why she came to upload them, by request or on her own, is not a factor. It is the terms of the license that is. If restored to the downloads, it will be in a fully legal and also moral way. To do anything else, would be a step down a road that none of us would want to travel. <br /> <br /> As someone who has lost much of his past work to such actions. I would want to know that someone, regardless of past issues, is willing to defend my property rights when they are so challenged. Also these actions protect the rights of Staale, protect PF and Plus3D also from legal and finanical punishment. <br /> <br /> Had I known all that Davide has now said about the background as he knew it, I would have acted the same. None of that information has any bearings on the legal issues of this incident. This was the only way to protect EVERYONE involved. It is not being kind to so easy on such issues, it is being kind to protect one from action that may lead to punishment.

You're right Pangor, as I wrote before, blocking the files is the right thing to do. <br /> <br /> What I would discuss is what to do with plus3d: I can swear on her good faith, the "contract" that she signed with Stahlratte is not exactly simple, I would have forgotten all the terms, also because probably she made the textures long ago and she simply put the same file here. <br /> <br /> There can be a simple solution , as far as I know: instead of having the files on our server, we can simply use the link to her site, maybe not the file itself but to the web page. It should not violate anything ( <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_whistle.gif" alt="" /> )

No one has said that she did not act in good faith. She could be a saint or an incarnation of mother Teresa, it doesn't matter. Stale's rules are simple and direct and it is only 3 rules. <br /> <br /> 1. No payment of any kind <br /> 2. No password or membership is required to access the file. <br /> 3. All text is intact and history updated if modified. <br /> <br /> <br /> I think she probably forgot, she saw your thread at rosity and posted the pic of her character cause it is a posette character and the thread was about posette. I believe it was an honest oversight on her part and ours for that matter. Pangor discovered the misstake and saved her and our butts by stopping the download. <br /> <br /> It is not about being mean to her and it doesn't matter how nice and kind she is. We have to follow stale's rules and his rules say no membership or password is to be required to access the texture. It is not something personal against her. That goes for anyone who modifies his textures. Stopping the download doesn't mean we have something against her being here. It means we follow his rules, and we have no choice but to follow his rules. <br /> <br /> Why can't she stay a member. I don't feel that anything has to be done other than stopping the download. We could link to her site at the link exchange that is visable to non members. Or maybe Stale would be ok with her having the texture here. Until and if we hear from him, we don't know. <br /> <br /> There is nothing stopping her from being an active member, we can encourge her in different ways. To post in the gallery, to write in the forums. There are sites that have photos of bodyparts that we could give her links too, if she wants. Then Whatever she does with the photos from those sites would be hers to do with as she wants.

In the free stuff section I can arrange the page for the download in the way that clicking "download" you're redirected to the page of her site where the textures are. do you think that it's ok ? I think it's ok but I need your opinion <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_pray.gif" alt="" />

I believe it will be ok. All you are doing is telling a person that at this link is where the texture is. Then it is their decision to click the download. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" /> Now in some thought I don't think we have ever done this before and it might open a new door of downloading. Even a new rule or two. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" /> But I think it is ok for that. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" />

<img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/lol.gif" alt="" /> I already used this way here: <br /> <br /> <a class="post-url" href="http://www.posetteforever.com/dload.php?action=file&file_id=389">http://www.posetteforever.com/dload.php?action=file&file_id=389</a> <br /> <br /> The page is still on Posetteforever but you can see what I mean, in this case it will redirect on her page on googlepages. She replied me that she is going to fix the brokne zip on her site and then she'll let me know. Said this if we use a redirect the copyright problems that she can have won't affect us.

Great! <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/lmao.gif" alt="" /> Yes I think this is the way to go. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" />

That is the purpose of the email that I sent. To determine that has permission been given for a variance from the blanket license; or shall we setup the secondary link form the PF download to her independent <b>open</b> and <b>free site</b> that is hosting the files; or because it is PF involved Staale would prefer for then not to be offered from here at all. Since he is the copyright owner of the underlying texture maps, he has the right to also prohibit a particular site from promoting them by a secondary link. <br /> <br /> Perhaps I should have spelled out every little detail of in this then we do that or else if not that we do the other. However, since what Kenny has suggested has been in use for a long time for PF already; it did not seem that I needed to cover that. Having a download suspended is not a shame, if there is a valid reason for it. Here there was such a reason, also valid for the others that have been suspended for well over a year and continue to be. Until the issues are resolved, such as broken links. Mine have been suspended for a while, I suspended them when there was a problem. And yes many of our items are already as offsite links. <br /> <br /> If it goes as I expect, that is the solution that I foresaw, but for now need to wait for a reply from him.

I talked to plus3d and she doesn't look offended . For waht concerns stahlratte, the conditions to share the file are clearly written in the texture itself and there is no "all sites except posetteforever" so we don't have to care for his permission, if we put the texture like that (a redirection to a site's page external to posetteforever) it's nothing different than a simple forum page with a link. Thinking about it <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" /> using this method we could even organize the links in the forum in the free stuff page as a special section like "external freebies: links to posette's resources" or a thing like this...

"there is no "all sites except posetteforever" so we don't have to care for his permission, if we put the texture like that (a redirection to a site's page external to posetteforever) it's nothing different than a simple forum page with a link." <br /> <br /> <br /> I don't think pangor meant it like that. I think he meant stale doesn't want it to be on a site that requires a membership or password. Since it is a freebie here at pf where u do need amembership & password, he wrote pf in his post. <br /> <br /> <br /> <b>NOt related to this issue</b>, i have been looking through part of the freestuff. We need to remove the un-posette morph. In the discription at the download page it says that it is not her creation. That she has mixed morphs she has found around the net. It seems that she doesn't know who the creators of the morphs she used are.

This goes to Davides last comment and not Thildas because as I was writing this she put hers in front of what I was trying to reply with Davides. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" /> So with that said here goes. I think if she was in the wrong she would take the texture off line and turn tail but I think that the original maker of the texture already knows of this and really to be quit honest with you, he doesn't seem to care. I'm sure that others have told him the same as us. Can somebody tell me if the copyright rules are even real. I don't even remember when Poser or anything came about where they started writing Read Me files to have a persons rights with Poser things and I have been out here along time that I think I would remember this. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" /> Not starting a war or anything. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_naughty.gif" alt="" /> God knows I have been threw this before. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/lmao.gif" alt="" /> But I thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" /> This is my own feelings and please don't look at this the wrong way, but when I do free things. They are free. That's it. No more no less. Just free. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" /> Its like when you give someone something and it is for free, you don't know what kind of shape it is in over the years. The green thing you gave is now painted blue. But you gave it free. Why would you care? <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif" alt="" /> It is like sometimes we forget the meaning of Christmas and get lost in the buying and worries of if the one will like it or not. I'm afraid we have lost the meaning of free. Maybe we should look it up again and see what the word really means. If people gave free things and expected nothing except the good feeling of helping others then this legal crap wouldn't be here and we wouldn't be talking about it now. I will admit that some people will never learn for their own kind, but this is the reason I have in some ways given up on Poser. It has gotton way out of hand. Unconditional Love? Unconditional Free Stuff. <br /> <br /> Please don't anyone be mad. But it seems that I feel like I can't voice myself anymore. To some who havn't been made aware of it my life is not going very well lately and to see this saddens me. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/very_sad.gif" alt="" />

"But it seems that I feel like I can't voice myself anymore. To some who havn't been made aware of it my life is not going very well lately and to see this saddens me." <br /> <br /> <br /> First off, i am sorry to hear that you are not well. I hope things turn around for you and that it gets better soon. <br /> <br /> <br /> The first part of the quoted statement, i agree with. I feel like i can't say what i think and feel here any more.

My dear Thilda I agree with everything you have said. I just wish it was like it was in the good ol days of Poser when it was so new. But its not and I will stand by you all in what ever you think is best. Your my friends. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_doh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_naughty.gif" alt="" /> Not agaiiin!!

This thing became a mess for me and there is some confusion so the points are: <br /> <br /> - Plus3d file can't stay on our site, and it's OK <br /> - We asked permission to Staale or Sthalratte and we're waiting for his reply. If I understood well he has not replied yet (and I think he'll never reply) <br /> - Plus3d files are OK on her site (no password) <br /> <br /> So I'm simply asking if a redirect to plus3d homepage is legal or not for what concern you all. My points are <br /> <br /> - Plus3d files are Ok on her site <br /> - The files are not shared here <br /> - We'll have not the file here but a simple redirect and not directly to the file but to a site page <br /> <br /> I'm talking stricly "legal", I'm not interested in the feeling of Staale of Stahlratte, as far as I know in this way we can't be accused of anything. We don't need any approval from him. <br /> <br /> We should cut this discussion soon or it will become a mess as usual <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_doh.gif" alt="" /> <br /> <br /> Everyone has their personal feeling about their works but this is not the topic, Staale feels different and everybody can feel different, this is not the point here, <b>we are discussing about how to share that texture legally</b>. If we derail we'll begin to fight each other <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_naughty.gif" alt="" />

I agree with everything you said Davide. If we have a link then it is up to the person that used the link. If not then let it go and don't have anything. Ether way it is all legal. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" /> Thats what I think. But I do care for everyones feelings. I don't want fighting and I care for everyone here to much to have that. So with all being said the link is fine as far as I am concerned. Others may have a better idea which again is fine with me. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" />

<blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36327#p36327"><div class="quote-user">tda42 wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36327');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text"> <br /> Can somebody tell me if the copyright rules are even real. I don't even remember when Poser or anything came about where they started writing Read Me files to have a persons rights with Poser things and I have been out here along time that I think I would remember this. <br /> </div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36327#p36327"><div class="quote-user">tda42 wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36327');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text">This is my own feelings and please don't look at this the wrong way, but when I do free things. They are free. That's it. No more no less. Just free. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" /> Its like when you give someone something and it is for free, you don't know what kind of shape it is in over the years.</div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> Yes they are real. And I have been with Poser even longer and I have seen the Poser community grow and then die utterly because of attitude like that you are now expressing. This is the third incarnation of the Poser community and it has survived when the prior ones did not, because of its members taking ownership rights more seriously. <br /> <br /> When you create something, it is yours, unless it was made as a work for hire, then it belongs to he who commissioned or employed you. Being yours, you own all rights to it, and no one has any at all. You can keep it private, or you can sell it or sell use of it. Or, you can share any par of it or all of it. Anyone who does not agree with the terms you create, can not use it at all. If they use the item contrary to any terms you have specified, they are thieves. Simple as that. This is nothing new. It has it roots in common law, and the UCC. It has been the law of the USA since the founding of the nation. It is now accepted by most of the world by international agreements. <br /> <br /> You opinion is that of one who cares about his own desires and not of the need or desires of another. If you wish to create free items to share you are more than free to release them to the wind as real public domain (assuming the license of your resources permit it.) But always remember for copyrighted works (all items we deal with in this field are), he who shares is still the owner. He who receives the item has been given use of it by the owner. <br /> <br /> This is like land. For example, say I own some park like land. For a holiday celibration, I open it for use as a place for picnics and such on that day. Permitting anyone to enter that day, I have not lost ownership of it. and no people can not use it as they see fit. <br /> <br /> I am speaking here not from theory but as one who has dealt with these matters as a professional. As wall as one who has provided much of his works for use of others. Including in the very software that is making this discussion possible. and as one who has had much stolen from him as his only thanks for his efforts. <br /> <br /> If you want this community of art to survive you really should check your thinking. Or at the least, if it spreads, PF will be known as a place to avoid. Or at worst theft of property right will grow to the point that this incarnation of the computer art will die out too. <br /> <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36327#p36327"><div class="quote-user">tda42 wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36327');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text"> <br /> Please don't anyone be mad. But it seems that I feel like I can't voice myself anymore. <br /> </div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> This is a joke right? You can't voice yourself? You mean like how I have had to hold back, on any discussion involving personal opinions, I have had to avoid so that I there would be no exchanged for you to overreact to and again delete all your gallery images and run away? Even as you stomp on and disregard the feelings of those you call friend? <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36327#p36327"><div class="quote-user">tda42 wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36327');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text"> <br /> To some who havn't been made aware of it my life is not going very well lately and to see this saddens me. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/very_sad.gif" alt="" /></div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> And this is an excuse your behavior how? <br /> <br /> Many of us have had bad times. If you have not noticed, I am currently since almost a year ago been going through a very bad time. There were some before that last year too. and the worst of it was in January of this year. I am still fighting to survive. Others here have had their bad times this year and last too. <br /> <br /> You are not the only one with bad time, but so far as I can see the only one who has time and a again used it as an excuse. I have not pointed this out before, for fear of your over reaction. If you have not noticed, also, that I am not the only one who has been made uncomfortable to speak for fear of your next over reaction. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36331#p36331"><div class="quote-user">Tormie wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36331');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text"> <br /> - We asked permission to Staale or Sthalratte and we're waiting for his reply. If I understood well he has not replied yet (and I think he'll never reply) <br /> </div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> Correct, no reply thus far, I have set a date for when I will assume silence will be his agreement to follow the terms of this license as included with the texture maps. <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36327#p36327"><div class="quote-user">tda42 wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36327');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text"> <br /> So I'm simply asking if a redirect to plus3d homepage is legal or not... <br /> </div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> yes, just as it is done at Rendo. That is what the seconday links clause provides for. <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36327#p36327"><div class="quote-user">tda42 wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36327');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text"> <br /> I'm talking stricly "legal", I'm not interested in the feeling of Staale of Stahlratte, as far as I know in this way we can't be accused of anything. We don't need any approval from him. <br /> </div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> To do as I have outlined, true. <br /> <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36325#p36325"><div class="quote-user">Tormie wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36325');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text">I talked to plus3d and she doesn't look offended . For waht concerns stahlratte, the conditions to share the file are clearly written in the texture itself and there is no "all sites except posetteforever" so we don't have to care for his permission</div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> He is the owner of his work, and though there is not PF exclusion in the wording of the license, he does have the right to refuse to have anything of them here, even a link to where to find them, if he so choses. <br /> <br /> You will recall the mess at 3DT last year, I had no except at 3DT clause in my licenses and you expressed the same opinion as me about my works there. As the courtesy I have extended the same to staale. You were right back then, please do not look for less right way this time because it is Staale's works in question. <br /> <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="quote" cite="viewtopic.php?p=36326#p36326"><div class="quote-user">TdaC wrote: [<a href="#_somewhat" onclick="javascript:open_postreview('show_post.php?p=36326');" class="genmed">View Post</a>]</div><div class="post-text"><b>NOt related to this issue</b>, i have been looking through part of the freestuff. We need to remove the un-posette morph. In the discription at the download page it says that it is not her creation. That she has mixed morphs she has found around the net. It seems that she doesn't know who the creators of the morphs she used are.</div></blockquote> <br /> <br /> I had not taken notice of that morph before. Yes, the copyright status of it is worse than questionable. I have disabled it. Until its final status and fate is determined.

<img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/very_sad.gif" alt="" /> As i supposed the shit hit the fan again at Posetteforever <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm not taking part of anyone but it's more than obvious that this last post will cause another big earthquake in our little site. We're already few, now we are less. I asked to pangor to consider editing this post and I closed the site waiting for him to do it, his reply was to refuse to talk to me on MSN and Yahoo messenger. I'm sorry but this kind of anger and behaviour is not of an administrator of a site like our, we're intended to be friends and the main task, mine and of pangor as administrators is to fix things , also between users. I'm not better than anyone else but at my age I want some peace at least at home and I consider this place home and you my closer friends. The matter of this topic is very stupid, at last one more or one less texture doesn't worth all this discussion. I sweated a lot in the past and also in these days to fix things between the users, some time I had success, some time i failed. With pangor I failed. I'm going to send him a message that will be simple: <br /> <br /> "Dear Pangor, you were one of my dearest friends, I passed with you some of your very sad days and I hope to have been a friend for you. I hope that what happened will make you think at your temper: You've been taken away from several sites, you're a smart person so you should agree that the probability that there is something wrong in the way you relate with other people is high. There is something I learned and it's that sometimes to recognise my own errors and say "I'm sorry, I made the wrong thing" makes me feel better and in peace with the people around me. I hope to meet you again and to that your life will be peaceful as you deserve it." <br /> <br /> So said pangor is no more in the staff of Posetteforever and he is on moderated status. <br /> <br /> This topic has no sense, after reading the idiotic Staale rules for his texture I put a secondary link on plus3d homepage for the file. For un-posette, please give me the link to the file so that I can delete it. I can't find it myself.

This comment has been removed.

Kenny. I could have erased the post but thing will become worse if I do it. I requested him to do it , he didn't , so I decided to put him out of the staff of the site, not because I've choosen "you" and not "him" but because we're not intended to offend each other. this is the PM I sent him, he didn't reply to my PMs. And being out of the staff he can't have access to this forum anymore, so he can't read your reply. <br /> <br /> Hi Michael. Please consider to modify your last message from the copyright thread. About the file they will simply deleted and that's all. im taking care of it. <br /> <br /> <i>Your reaction against Kenny is too much angry. Please remember that Posetteforever is meant to be a community of friends and we should fix the problems between us instead of enlarge them. We are few and after your post we'll become fewer. Please think of the spirit of this place that is funny. Your reminding of kenny leaving the site and erasing all his picture is something that i hardly fixed in the past and Kenny understood that his beaviour was wrong. Now he said what is his own and personal philosophy about his own and personal freebies. I don't agree with him but he can do what he wants with his own things. Now I'm saying to you that you should not react like that in a thread that was never near to be offensive to you, I won't spectate PF fall down once again. So the site will stay closed.</i> <br /> <br /> I'm going to work now , Ihope that this other big mess will be fixed <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The matter is closed. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" />

So what should be do now ? Personally I'll go forward and I'll try to forgive this episode soon. For the rest I turned on the approval system for the files and for the pictures, but if the members of the staff can help me keeping an eye on what is uploaded on the site i can turn it off. Actually, without pangr, I'm alone doing this job of surveillance and I'm not home every time...

I've been contacted by some of you about this episode and I came to a conclusion: <br /> <br /> I fixed this thing in the way I could in order to prevent more damage, If I would have left thing as they were without doing nothing the two of you would have fight each other destroying completely our group, this is my point. Please consider to be in my position. <br /> <br /> Now I'm not in the position to take further actions. So now is all in your hands friends: if you want to fix this mess you've to talk each other: someone has to apologize and someone has to forgive. I don't think this miracle will happen but still someone else thinks it's possible. <br /> <br /> I'll turn the approval of files and pics as it was, I'm alone now as admin so you should keep an eye opened, ad moderators you can block forbidden contents before i can check them, please do it if something wrong will be uploaded. <br /> <br /> I'll go to my mother till tomorrow, I hope to see some good news <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_pray.gif" alt="" /> <br /> <br /> Take care

Good to hear about the approval re-change. <br /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" /> <br /> <br /> I'll keep my eyes open for problems too. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/happy8.gif" alt="" />

I also will keep my eyes open Davide! <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" />

Davide in the name of friendship and this wonderfull place we call home I have come to a conclusion. I forgive Pangor for all that was said. If you see fit and he would like maybe he can come back if you and the others wish. But please, no more bashing. I was just asking questions and trying to come to a conclusion on my behalf to help get this resolved and didn't expect anything like this. If you would like to tell him to contact me I am willing to let it all behind us. I hate it when friends become bitter enemies and I know you could use his help. Everything is as it was. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/thumb.gif" alt="" /> Now, who wants Pizza! <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Ok Kenny <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" /> . Now is Pangor's time to move...

Hugs kenny! I agree with no more bashing. <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/heartbeat.gif" alt="" />

<img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/heartbeat.gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/lol.gif" alt="" />

<img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/TFR718 (6).gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/ayeah.gif" alt="" /> <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/smile.gif" alt="" />

I assume you've already received this one, so I will comment it directly. <br /> <br /> Hello, <br /> <br /> This letter is a follow on to the events of July 4, 2007 and soon thereafter <br /> <br /> I regret that you have rather over reacted to my posted message of July 4th of this year. It was not intended to cause offense. The thread itself was only a status report to the staff of an action that had to be taken for the protection of Posetteforever and of Davide as well. It was not a thread in which to debate the morality of copyright law. So all your opinions in that thread were clearly off topic. For those opinions to be stated were fine, in a thread created to debate the morality of copyrights. In the staff forum or elsewhere, depending on the scope of the intended discussion it would be fine. To do so in the thread where you brought the debate is irresponsible, it could lead to policy or actions that would cause harm to the site or to Davide, the owner. <br /> <br /> What you spoke of would have been a interesting discussion and moral debate. In it own thread and not linked to any actual even on the site, I would have enjoyed it, in the old days at Posetteforever. That is if it were in the past, before I was made to feel that I could not even post an opinion or debate an issue on the site at all for fear of upsetting you. I have been told that my intentions in any statement mean nothing, only your reaction does. <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">The reason why pangor has been moved out of the staff is because he wrote an angry reply to the opinion of another member causing a mess, that' not what an admin should do. The copyright laws don't matter.</span> <br /> <br /> <br /> I have been told that my post of July 4th was filled with anger, it was not. That I posted it as a result of a bad temper, it was not. However your automatic reaction to it (assuming you ever saw it) and Davide's oversensitivity caused by his desire that you not overreact and again delete all your works and then once again leave Posetteforever, has cost me my friendship with Davide. Before I even knew what had happened, he had demanded from me a retraction of what I had posted, but he had closed the site as told me that it would remain closed forever. With the site closed, I was blocked from doing what he demanded. This he does not accept, due to his lack of experience with that aspect of the current software of the site. As I have since tried to explain, he is site administrator and so has full access of the site when open or closed. All others, including administrators have no such access when the site is closed. There is a mod (patch) for the software to provide administrators the access as he assumes that they would have while the site is closed, however that mod was installed in a prior version of the site but on July 4th, is was not installed at Posetteforever. Using a dial up connection on a failing voice line that day, my online access was severely limited. By the time my link was stable enough again, he had informed me that he and I are no longer friends and I had been demoted. The demotion has also prevented me from doing as he demanded, not being on staff I could not edit the post (since it was in the staff forum) to protect your feeling at facing the truth. <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">I closed the site in order to let pangor delete the message before Kenny could read it. The site was closed for more than a hour. Meanwhile I contacted pangor in several ways: msn, yahoo, email etc. Simply, after some hours i couldn't keep the site closed so I had to take a decision. And for what I had in my hands, a bad behaviour from an admin, I do what I had to do: the fact that I closed the site was not to prevent pangor to edit the message, on the contrary I wanted to fix the matter without creating a mess. As the owner of the site I could do what I wanted to do without closing the site for hours waiting for pangor's reply: deleting the message, editing the message etc. I simply would wait for pangor: on chat, on email, whatever. I had no replies.</span> <br /> <br /> <br /> By that time Davide had also, without warning deleted my email account <!-- no smilies start --><script type="text/javascript"> <!-- document.write(' </script><noscript>pangor [at] posetteforever [dot] com</noscript><!-- no smilies end -->, killing the mail box and all it at that time contained. This was an extremly unkind act as he knew the issues I have been facing, that actions there nearly cost me my land, home, and any chance for a decent future not not mention so much more that could have been lost. That action of his has caused more loss and more pain for more people than he or you will ever know. I am still in the process of freeing myself from the trap he has placed undoing as much as possible the damage that Davide caused by that single action of his childish temper that has cost me so much. The situation will never be fully recovered from, the extra funds and time expended are gone now, forever. (Congratulations, Davide by that one act of yours you have cost me and my family more loss, continuance of pain, and uncertainty, than any one else has in any single action. Then next closest person required over 20 years and many events and even then did not match what you did in only a few seconds, the is a record.) <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">Well, this is not true and I don't understand why he is spreading such a dirt on me. But let's begin from the start line: i gifted all the staff memebers with an email address from posetteforever.com , now, if one is no more a member of the staff the conseguence is obvious. If I don't trust an individual anymore, I can't let him use a domain name that belongs to me. So said I didn't delete the account immediatly: I kept the address alive for some days while I warned him to find another address, then I kept the address for months with forwarding to his new address , I mean MONTHS, if you wrote at <!-- no smilies start --><script type="text/javascript"> <!-- document.write(' </script><noscript>pangor [at] posetteforever [dot] com</noscript><!-- no smilies end --> all went to his new address. And, at last, I would never use an email address that was OBVIOUSLY something that can come and go for such important things, using that address in such a way is something that betrayed my trust and confidence... As the owner of the site I kept on the site emails which importance or content I could never know. Pangor should have not use the posetteforever address for such things, but I think no one else did the same because let me say that it's simply stupid.</span> <br /> <br /> <br /> Davide has also blocked my ability to speak with him. As I was writing this in July, I was informed that my ability to edit or delete my posting at Posetteforever has been taken from me. Also that anything I do post in forums, downloads, and album, are subject to admin approval, alteration, and censorship prior to being visible to anyone below admin level or perhaps site admin level. The effect has been that I have been blocked on IM, from the site and by email. Yes all I have sent to either of you And another long time and active member of the site has also so been treated. All this, Davide's reactions have been to protect your feeling so that you will not overreact and run away as you have in the past. <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">I simply put you on approval like the new members. You simply never wrote anything. And, above all, there are billions of way to contact people here: chat, renderosity, poserpros, emails, smoke signals. What he says is ridiculous. I put him on approval because from his behaviour I feared some damages could be done to the site, and that's all. Each request that he would do to me, like delete all his gallery, i simply would have done, but I want to keep the integrity of the messages of the forum. He simply never contacted me for asking something.</span> <br /> <br /> <br /> Kenny, I have been told by Davide that I must seek your permission and forgiveness to have my former position restored. That I may even be fully banned from the site if that is what is needed for you to feel better. The results of your actions has already cost Posetteforever two staff members who are both established core members of the site. How much more harm will you cause to be inflicted on Posetteforever and its membership by your actions? I am not saying this from temper or anger or any of the other vile things I have been accused of. This is from my desire to help you. For you now see before you the results of your actions. How many others will have to suffer to support your fragile ego? How many others will be made t suffer for before you to will grow and mature into a balanced adult? I do not mean this to be hurtful, however your actions and reactions have over time been quite selfcentered, selfish, immature and ill tempered. It seems that no one can ever disagree with you on any issue at any level without your seeing that as a sign of hate. There is no hate, except in your own mind or withing your own heart perhaps. Though I may be soon driven away from Posetteforever in revenge for my speaking as someone else should have spoken to you long ago; Please, for the good of the site and its membership, consider what you have done to it and to the other members over time and what has happened as a result. <br /> <br /> Yes, I have been told to that I need to beg for your forgiveness and permission to regain my former position. This is something that I will not do, now or ever. First I stand by all that I had posted on the 4th, it was true and it was my job as administrator to do so. I will not apologize for doing my job as it should be done. I do not think of you as being retarded a Davide claims, however many have been hurt by your immaturity. Other members should be able to post an opinion from an opposing viewpoint than your without your running to Davide for redress. <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">Another attack to Kenny. I'm sorry because I know that this will give Kenny another load of sadness, please Kenny don't react : <img src="https://www.posetteforever.com/images/smiles/eusa_pray.gif" alt="" /> ... Again, pangor reacted in a bad way to a simple opinion of Kenny, the copyright thing doens't matter anything. Pangor was removed for the reason that HE NEVER SAID "I'M SORRY, I OVERREACTED", while Kenny wrote publicly in the forum that he was sorry and that the incident was closed for him. I'M STILL WAITING FOR THAT LETTER AND FOR THOSE HANDSHACKINGS SINCE JULY FROM PANGOR but now, it's a bit too late</span> <br /> <br /> <br /> As for seeking the position of Administrator of Posetteforever, I never sought it in the first place. My prior actions without seeking or considering the position of administrator or moderator before that. As Davide said when he asked me to help him run the site, I had earned the position. Since that time, I have been assigned to do the most dirty tasks that were required to keep the site running and safe. I have done them as it was requested. Such a position is not is not a reward, though it is a duty to be performed and heavy responsibility to do what is best for the site and the members. This is why I say I was serving as administrator; I was serving the best interest of the membership. Even when I could not longer freely post following that day 2005 when you had "that tantrum and so took your toys and went home", I performed my duty to the membership. Yes, I have been told to not speak of that event, to pretend it has never happened. However, to protect your fragile emotions and so prevent such a reaction from you once again, anyone and everyone else may be driven away from active participation in Posetteforever. How many more core members will be lost to salve your feelings? I have been told to forget and pretend that never happened, but that is not how healing is done. Not when every contrary opinion on any issue is seen by you as an attack, and Davide want them to be reversed to please you. <br /> <br /> If my past actions for the benefit of the site can be so quickly forgotten, disrespected and pushed aside, why should I seek restoration of those responsibilities? There is one good reason, for the good of the site and for our friends who are on the site In the end, that is all that really matters. That has been my motive on all actions involving Posetteforever. As in my work career, I have worked hard often long thankless hours while the rest were busy playing. <br /> <br /> My work for the benefit of the site and the membership was not forced out of me. I gave of myself willingly. Where there was something to be done, I did it. When there was a proper request I fulfilled it. When I was called upon to do unfair things to some members, I refused, and by doing so restored sanity to the site's actions. In all things, I chose when to act and how far to go. I gave of myself willingly on my terms. My time and my life has value, I alone choose how to spend it. Yes, I am the one who chooses how my life will be. When I agree to an action, it is because I choose to. I am not a slave as I would be if I were to accept now the demands to beg and cower before you. I have performed my duty to the site and members, with dignity and honor, and demanded in payment only the respect that I had earned. <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">No one has been ever asked to deal their position as staff member here as a job, never. I said thank you to the staff members for their (free) work on the site and i searched volunteers for some heavier work, but if I could, I do them myself. pangor weigh all that he did for the site. I never weighted the countless hours passed with him online with his problems, advising, caring and even sending money. I never wrote about it because it was something did for a friend and i don't care to take some medals of honor for what I do for my friends.</span> <br /> <br /> <br /> Kenny, now I have a question for you, what have you done to aid the site, the members and our friends? Do you think of their needs, or only your own personal needs and wants? Think that over, and if you have it in you to grow into the man you could be; look beyond your personal need to what is best for the site and you will know what you must do and you will do it. Sometimes such action is not popular, but an honorable and decent man knows what to need to be done and does it. I have done my duty, my honor is clean; can you say as much about yourself? No. This is your chance, it is up to you to do what is best for Posetteforever and its community, if you have any honor within you, then you will know what that action must be. <br /> <br /> Kenny, Just as I will not seek forgiveness from you, I will not offer you any either. No such forgiveness is needed all we need to do is the right thing for the benefit of our friends at Posetteforever. There is nothing more that I can do, I have been entirely silenced at the site and Davide is not listening or thinking. Now it is all in your hands, go do the right thing for the benefit of all members, if you have it within you to be a man and not a spoiled brat. Listen to me child, you have here read the words of a man of honor, are you prepared to stand up and be counted as a man? If you be a man, you will know the right thing to do here and now, therefore, do it. <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">Please ignore him Kenny, let him talk. I know of his problems but I can't help him in the way he needs to be helped, what I've to say is that you're simply a dear firend of all of us and nothing else is asked here, nothing. The site is in my own responsability, the good go to my friend and if something is going bad is my responsability and that's all</span> <br /> <br /> Davide, by your words and deeds, you have greatly wronged myself, but more importantly, my family and friends as well, by your words and deeds. You have read here what I have said to Kenny in the prior paragraph. What of you? Are you a man or only an overgrown schoolyard bully? You have accused me of what? Of "anger and temper", while you have lied to me and about me. You have disrespected me and those I love, by your actions. You have accused me of having harmed the site as an excuse for your extreme measures. When I have presented you with insight, you stated that you will not listen to words of doom, filled with anger and temper. But if there is a doom on the site, it is your own doing. You have disrespected myself and others as well. Think of how may you have insulted and driven away from the site the very ones that you then requested me to talk to and bring back. Years ago, I had a superior at work who did the same as you. I was the vice president of that corporation he was the president and chairman of the board. He also had his version of Kenny to be protected no matter what she did wrong (yes in his case it was a young lady). Where is that company now? It is no more. He also, like you, acted out of temper and drove workers and customers away then would issue orders to bring them back. There also, I was giving the thankless jobs and then one day he reacted irrationally and so we parted. In about a month after I departed, that company was no more. <br /> <br /> You have claimed that I was driven out of other sites for my ways and need to look at myself. What in the name of all that is holy do you think I have been doing! This year has been for me one of great loss and pain; it has also bee one of discover and joy. It has been a year of reflection and rebirth--long before you told me to look at myself. So let us see now about your claims in this matter without using names. since January of 2005, I have parted or been parted from a few sites. Stating them in order: The first, the owner was a manipulator and a thief each member were driven out in turn and as you know, that site is no longer online. The second, was a training site where the instructor left without word or warning, in spite of my efforts to keep it going, the owner gave up it survived for two thirds of its lifespan based on my efforts alone. The third would have failed many times during 2005 and early 2006 if it were not for my efforts, it remains now with only five members from the one time large membership. The fourth one, the owner became bored and overwhelmed by the responsibility of running a site with such a large membership, I was called in to run it as it was assumed it would decline; he started a new competing site and then as he saw the older site doing better than it ever did when he ran it, he sneaked in through a back door that he left behind and deleted the site. Fifth, you know the issues of this site. Sixth, I was contracted to rebuild a site, I did what I was paid to do, the contract was completed and so my time was over; the owner thought it could be run without me, it has since closed and a much diminished site is there instead. I have reflected as you suggested long before you suggested it, Davide. Now it is your turn to reflect on your actions and motives. <br /> <br /> Davide, I have been more than once disgusted by your actions and unfeeling ways. You live too much of your time in a fantasy world, you care more for the feelings of those who are incapable of feeling anything. You have attempted to manipulate situations and events to your liking and playing with peoples lives and emotions as though they are your toys. The illusions you maintain may be charming, but not very useful. You use crying smilies to express sadness for hard times that friends are going through. You dream of winning the lottery to aid them. BUT what have you done to help them? You rejected my request for using a part of Posetteforever to the provide aid for them.0 <br /> <br /> <br /> Your anti commercial mandate is more important to you than helping your friends; however, it is no more important than helping yourself. It is interesting that while you will not permit anything commercial to touch the site, you do have a store at Zazzle. I do recall that you were not at all pleased about other members selling at Zazzle or CafePress or even at Renerosity or deviantArt, I interpret that as the mandate being different for you than for the rest of the membership. <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">This is simply very stupid... I simply ask not to advertise commrcial sites on PF, yes , I have a Zazzle account where it's written "the money will go for posetteforever site" and never said to the members not to be commercially involved, lol. Guiltypleasures has a Zazzle account as many others, I don't know, she is still my dear friend. I never talked of my commercial affairs on the site, but I don't see the relationship. I'm not a communist or an anarchist, I simply want THIS site to be only for fun without annoying advertisements. That was the main reason why I created it when "banner time" began at poserpros in 2003. <br /> What i do out of this site it's not your businness or the business of other people. What I'm earning from Zazzle ? 0, zero, nada, no one has ever bought anything so, as usual, I'm simply using the money of my earnings as a simple worker for the site. Some more dirt... I ask more dirt pangor, I refused what for helping who ? When your mother was dying ? i wrote a public message here, and sent PMs to all the active members searching for help. I als wrote to the governor of your state there in the U.S.A. Yes I use smilies to express my feeling. It's my fault that I don't know very well your language and I have to use this stupid smilies. But what are you pretending from me ? I'm living in the other half of the planet, I'm a simple bus driver, what i was supposed to do ? Remember that the only flowers at your mother's funerals were mine...</span> <br /> <br /> As I You are trading on the name of Posetteforever and using artwork made for the site for your products that are for sale in your store. A lottery winning is a wishful thinking at best, in the mean time these people are suffering, and some of them have lives lost of precious years. Your use of Posy, Angela, and the rest of your virtual friends (shades of the Gojira gang) was charming, but when you use her "emotional state" as an excuse for hurting others, real people, the "funny" is over. I will side with a real flesh and blood lady over Posy any day. While you are dreaming of lottery winnings, I am taking action. That is what a man does, sees a problem and tries to fix it. There is no charm in inflicting or prolonging harm. You have fantasy, I have reality; now listen here young man, which of us really needs to grow up and be a man? For the answer look in your mirror. <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">I asked Posy for permission... And what are you offending now ? Posy ? A virtual character ? And... What action are you taking ? What action have you ever taken ? I've still just a little, very little respect of you pangor for not telling clearly what I think of your "taking action" . You're diying slowly pangor. I don't need to grow up, I like to be a child.</span> <br /> <br /> You speak of us as "little people" who can have no effects beyond our own little world, the world of the "big and important people" is not ours to influence. I think you need to qualify that thought by speaking only of yourself. Not of the posetteforever membership. I have been a corporate vice president, I have also in another corporation, taken actions that drove policy for a major multinational corporation. If you wished to eliminate from your life all that had resulted from the work of my hands, you had better close down Posetteforever, never use any part of the internet ever again, never benefit from any unix based system. In short you will need to move to a cave and live like a neaderthal to escape benefiting from my achievements. I am certain that I am not the only member of the site who had had far reaching effect in this world. As some of us have done before some of us can do again. Not all of us are bus drivers. Please do not diminish us by your selfimage. <br /> <span style="color: red;"> <br /> I'm an atheist and Pangor is not the god I'll pray, I'm not eliminating anyone, I'm simply ignoring him. Pangor is still able to delete his pictures from the album and keep his work in his own hands. It's a privilege to post something here, I do not need his pictures . After this one he can say goodbye to his gallery in the album. I don't take in any account his threats and I don't understand what this BIG mutlinational something manager wants from me... And this attempts to bring people on his side, but what side ? I don't get the point of all of this. What the hell is he wanting ??</span> <br /> <br /> You also told me that when someone is wrong he should say "I am sorry", you are correct, when he is in the wrong. So why are you not speaking them? <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">Yes, I'm sorry, I had some doubt about your beahviour but you cleared it all with this thing. I wish you good luck and a great future with your internet projects and all those multinationals... Good luck and good bye...</span> <br /> <br /> <br /> Take care, <br /> Pangor <br /> <br /> <span style="color: red;">Take some pills instead, banned <br /> <br /> Davide</span>