I'm trying to save my aging computer from imminent doom , since buying a new system is not in the cards for me at the moment.  My problems are with cooling fans.  I have a 550 MhZ AMD Athlon system with a Microstar MS-6167 motherboard (I bought it ten or eleven years ago right when the Athlon processor was first introduced) and a Matrox G400-max display card (way back then, this was top-o-the-line). A few weeks ago something didn't sound quite right to me   so I took the cover off the computer and saw that the cooling fan on the Matrox video card wasn't spinning at all. I gently prodded it with my finger and it started to work, but since the end was obviously near for it I started shopping for a fan. The original fan is 40mm x 40mm and 5V DC@0.13 amps, which apparently is unusual, but a somewhat nearby hardcore electronics store had one (only one type, and the last one in stock as well) with a similar wattage rating (5V@0.19 amps).  The guy at the store told me this was a rare type of fan and he wouldn't be restocking it or getting similar ones in ever, so I guess it was lucky they even had one.  I then went to install the new fan and noticed that the original one has three power wires while the new one I purchased has only two power wires coming out of it. Perhaps foolishly   I figured it wasn't important, and started to install the new fan. I had to stop, though, because the new fan is a little thicker than the old one (10mm vs 6mm) and I didn't have the right size screws to secure it.   I put the old fan back on and put the computer back together until I could get the proper screws.

Since I was concerned about the video card getting too hot, I've been running the computer without the cover so I can keep an eye on it.  I didn't have time to go to the hardware store for the screws, so I've been going on this way for a few weeks, and the Matrox cooling fan has been working fine for now (obviously however it can't be trusted and must be replaced).  Two days ago I was very deeply disturbed to see that when I turned on the computer the CPU cooling fan did not start to spin and was making a loud noise .  I prodded it with my finger and it started spinning, but this situation seemed to be something that a professional would refer to as Really, Really Bad .  Since I've been running the computer with the case open anyway to keep an eye on the video card fan, I've been closely watching the CPU fan as well so that if it stops spinning I can shut down the computer immediately.  The fan has been working but it's very loud now (I did look and there are no obstructions) so I can tell the bearings are about to fail any moment.

Since the CPU fan is a pretty common (or so I thought) 12V 50mm type, I was very surprised that when I went to several local computer shops none of them had an appropriate fan in stock.  One young clerk at one of the stores told me this was a "highly specialized type of item" and I had to restrain myself from laughing in his face as these type of fans were used in millions of computers for many years.  Unfortunately the hardcore electronics shop where I got the other fan is in another town, and although I'm pretty sure they would have a replacement CPU fan I can't get over there anytime soon.  I dug into my closet where I have a couple of old (even older than what I'm currently using) computers I keep for nostalgia value and the first one I checked had a 12V CPU fan of the proper size so I pulled it out.  Looking at it however, I see that it also is a two power wire fan, while the current CPU fan in my computer is a three-wire type that plugs into the motherboard.

I did a little research online and found out that in three-wire cooling fans, the extra third wire is used to detect and monitor the RPM of the fan.  In newer computers I guess the motherboard will control the RPM to maintain a constant temperature at the CPU, but I'm guessing that in my old computer it's probably only used to simply detect if the fan is in fact turning at all or has stopped/failed.  However, I did not see any sort of error messages when either the video card fan or the CPU fan had their stoppage incidents , so I'm not sure if I even have any monitoring capability or if it is working on my older system.

Now that I'm aware of the purpose of all the wires on the three-wire fans, but have only two-wire fans with which to replace them, I'm not sure what to do especially since I feel urgently compelled to fix both fan problems immediately--sitting here listening to how sick they sound is highly unnerving--and I don't want to waste more time trying to find the correct (and presumably very rare) fans for my old computer unless it is absolutely-positively necessary.  Does anyone have a suggestion about how I should proceed?  My online research wasn't very informative about whether it would be safe to go ahead and replace the three-wire fans with two-wire versions since a few Google hits said to never attempt this but gave no specific reason why, while a few others said don't worry you'll just get some trivial error messages that can be ignored.  I'm not sure which of these random search-engine results to trust, which is why I'm asking for the opinions of those I trust here at Posette Forever since in addition to being fine artists there seem to be many generally technically-minded folks here as well.

In looking at the other really old computers in my closet I saw that another one had a 12V 50mm fan that hooks up to the hard drive power supply plugs using a pass-through plug, so I guess another option I have on my table is to use this old fan for the CPU.  However the computer that fan was in doesn't work and I no longer remember why it failed, so this second fan should be considered of questionable value although I guess I could cut and splice the connectors onto the first fan I want to use as a replacement for the CPU fan.  This then would allow me to power the CPU fan directly off the general power supply instead of through the motherboard (as the Athlon system is currently configured to do).  However, this is a bit of extra work and would cram even more jumbling wires into my already cramped computer case, plus would not solve the question of what to do about the video card fan and the three-wire/two-wire issue on that.

Does anyone have any suggestions or have any experience with the operation of older PC cooling fans?  I know I'm a cheapskate, and while there's no doubt I've gotten my money's worth out of this old computer I want to keep on stretching life out of it until the bitter end.

Thanks

Endosphere

Yes, this is simple, use a free molex connector for hard disks

the output is yellow wire = 12 volts red wire = 5 volts

you can find a "female" molex and do the job cutting the wires, there are also adapters where you can plug in directly the CPU fan without cutting wires.

set the fans in place and connect them to a HD connector, the graphic card one, that is 5 volts to the red wire and one of the black wires, the cpu one to the yellow wire and one of the black wires

I've a simple analog fan controller, apart for the cpu that has a bypass in order to use the thermal control of the computer (the bypass spins up the fan even if I've set it up at low speed in case of need) every other fan is connected to it, but the simplest way is to do what I suggested to you, connect them to a power source and they will spin at maximum speed, that is the safest way, the "simplest" power source is a HD Molex connector.

I don't use the power source of the video card, because it can fail: there is an additional circuitry on the video card that controls the fan, I prefer to have it bulletproof and the fan connected directly to the Power Source Unit , same for the CPU, apart for the bypass it's better to have the fan connected directly to the PSU, maybe more noise, but it's safer.

____________

Thank you for the good advice, Tormie.  I didn't know the details on those wires.  I don't have any unused power plugs in my computer, but now that I know what to do it will be no problem to get an extra pass-through connector (I do have the one I already salvaged from my closet) and splice the new fans on then hook them to a hard drive power connection (I have two hard drives, so I'll hook one fan up to each of them).  Having the fans run continuously at 100 percent is how this computer has always worked anyway (until recently of course due to the fan failures) so the noise will be no different than it has been for years.

Thanks again,  

Endosphere

Some have an adapter to plug into the power supply itself. The RPM
isn't really a must because the default is set to high voltage anyway.
If you are having fan problems you might want to get a small stand up
fan and put it along side the Motherboard. That will cool it down till
you get the fan straightened out. A fan that makes that king of noise
can be helped with silicon spray. It will quite and free the Stater down
to let it spin. If not then the windings are broke. I have had to replace more
fans than I could count. I still have a Northgate with a 400 Celeron with
499 mb of memory and an 8 gig Seagate hard drive. Now are you ready
for this. everything in the PC is original. It is 11 years old.                                            I am typing on it now because it is
easier with a small drive to go on the net. Less to blow up. While the big Sony VAIO
PCs are off line and are virus free. But if you have a red and black wire on the fan. One is hot while the other
is ground.   I hope you get it working.

____________
Two wrongs don't make a right.
But six left turns will get you around the block
and back in the driveway again.

I forgot to mention that you can use a fan of a different size on the video card if you don't find one with the right form factor, just use an epoxy glue ("superglue") at the corners or one of that "concrete glue", the temperature won't be so high to dissolve it, also remember to add some thermal paste under the fan...

Epoxy glue is safe because it doesn't have water into it...

____________

Thanks for the tips everyone.  I'm glad to see tda42 shares my attitude that unless there's some specific task to accomplish that requires using the latest and greatest stuff, if it's not broke then don't fix it.  I find some minor satisfaction in life from knowing (at least according to what I've read) I have what could be the only remaining functional [*knocks on wood*] IBM DeathStar hard drive in the world on this computer, a 13GB job I've been using steadily for my boot/OS drive for over a decade now.

Grab a regular fan, stick it on the table, point it at the open case and keep the innards cool that way. It may make you a little uncomfortable, but at least you'll be able to function.  (CaptSnaz)

Endosphere wrote: [View Post]

I'm trying to save my aging computer from imminent doom , since buying a new system is not in the cards for me at the moment.  My problems are with cooling fans.  I have a 550 MhZ AMD Athlon system with a Microstar MS-6167 motherboard (I bought it ten or eleven years ago right when the Athlon processor was first introduced) and a Matrox G400-max display card (way back then, this was top-o-the-line). A few weeks ago something didn't sound quite right to me   so I took the cover off the computer and saw that the cooling fan on the Matrox video card wasn't spinning at all. I gently prodded it with my finger and it started to work, but since the end was obviously near for it I started shopping for a fan. The original fan is 40mm x 40mm and 5V DC@0.13 amps, which apparently is unusual, but a somewhat nearby hardcore electronics store had one (only one type, and the last one in stock as well) with a similar wattage rating (5V@0.19 amps).  The guy at the store told me this was a rare type of fan and he wouldn't be restocking it or getting similar ones in ever, so I guess it was lucky they even had one.  I then went to install the new fan and noticed that the original one has three power wires while the new one I purchased has only two power wires coming out of it. Perhaps foolishly   I figured it wasn't important, and started to install the new fan. I had to stop, though, because the new fan is a little thicker than the old one (10mm vs 6mm) and I didn't have the right size screws to secure it.   I put the old fan back on and put the computer back together until I could get the proper screws.

Since I was concerned about the video card getting too hot, I've been running the computer without the cover so I can keep an eye on it.  I didn't have time to go to the hardware store for the screws, so I've been going on this way for a few weeks, and the Matrox cooling fan has been working fine for now (obviously however it can't be trusted and must be replaced).  Two days ago I was very deeply disturbed to see that when I turned on the computer the CPU cooling fan did not start to spin and was making a loud noise .  I prodded it with my finger and it started spinning, but this situation seemed to be something that a professional would refer to as Really, Really Bad .  Since I've been running the computer with the case open anyway to keep an eye on the video card fan, I've been closely watching the CPU fan as well so that if it stops spinning I can shut down the computer immediately.  The fan has been working but it's very loud now (I did look and there are no obstructions) so I can tell the bearings are about to fail any moment.

Since the CPU fan is a pretty common (or so I thought) 12V 50mm type, I was very surprised that when I went to several local computer shops none of them had an appropriate fan in stock.  One young clerk at one of the stores told me this was a "highly specialized type of item" and I had to restrain myself from laughing in his face as these type of fans were used in millions of computers for many years.  Unfortunately the hardcore electronics shop where I got the other fan is in another town, and although I'm pretty sure they would have a replacement CPU fan I can't get over there anytime soon.  I dug into my closet where I have a couple of old (even older than what I'm currently using) computers I keep for nostalgia value and the first one I checked had a 12V CPU fan of the proper size so I pulled it out.  Looking at it however, I see that it also is a two power wire fan, while the current CPU fan in my computer is a three-wire type that plugs into the motherboard.

I did a little research online and found out that in three-wire cooling fans, the extra third wire is used to detect and monitor the RPM of the fan.  In newer computers I guess the motherboard will control the RPM to maintain a constant temperature at the CPU, but I'm guessing that in my old computer it's probably only used to simply detect if the fan is in fact turning at all or has stopped/failed.  However, I did not see any sort of error messages when either the video card fan or the CPU fan had their stoppage incidents , so I'm not sure if I even have any monitoring capability or if it is working on my older system.

Now that I'm aware of the purpose of all the wires on the three-wire fans, but have only two-wire fans with which to replace them, I'm not sure what to do especially since I feel urgently compelled to fix both fan problems immediately--sitting here listening to how sick they sound is highly unnerving--and I don't want to waste more time trying to find the correct (and presumably very rare) fans for my old computer unless it is absolutely-positively necessary.  Does anyone have a suggestion about how I should proceed?  My online research wasn't very informative about whether it would be safe to go ahead and replace the three-wire fans with two-wire versions since a few Google hits said to never attempt this but gave no specific reason why, while a few others said don't worry you'll just get some trivial error messages that can be ignored.  I'm not sure which of these random search-engine results to trust, which is why I'm asking for the opinions of those I trust here at Posette Forever since in addition to being fine artists there seem to be many generally technically-minded folks here as well.

In looking at the other really old computers in my closet I saw that another one had a 12V 50mm fan that hooks up to the hard drive power supply plugs using a pass-through plug, so I guess another option I have on my table is to use this old fan for the CPU.  However the computer that fan was in doesn't work and I no longer remember why it failed, so this second fan should be considered of questionable value although I guess I could cut and splice the connectors onto the first fan I want to use as a replacement for the CPU fan.  This then would allow me to power the CPU fan directly off the general power supply instead of through the motherboard (as the Athlon system is currently configured to do).  However, this is a bit of extra work and would cram even more jumbling wires into my already cramped computer case, plus would not solve the question of what to do about the video card fan and the three-wire/two-wire issue on that.

Does anyone have any suggestions or have any experience with the operation of older PC cooling fans?  I know I'm a cheapskate, and while there's no doubt I've gotten my money's worth out of this old computer I want to keep on stretching life out of it until the bitter end.

Thanks

Endosphere

Hi, welcome CaptSnaz

Big quote...

____________

Sorry to hear about the fan troubles.  I'm not a pc expert, but I've been told by some that are experts (or act like they are anyways) that having your pc open in order to keep things cool is very bad.  

The reasons they cite are that the chasis your pc is in has been built with proper airflow in mind. With everything being optimal, the fan at one end of the pc pulls air in and pushes it further into the pc.  The internal fans use this air as needed and the other fan at the other end pushes it out.  Having the pc open ruins this because nothing is pushing air into an area that the internal fans can use.  When they're working, they're just using stagnant air.  Using a larger fan could work, but then it could also mistakenly blow debris you don't want into the pc...  things like hair, dirt and other things that the pc fans aren't strong enough to pull in.

So yes, your dilema is big and I sympathize with you.  While I hesitate to do this, try looking online at stores like Tiger Direct and such.  Maybe they have a fan you can use, they do carry some older stuffs and the fans I use in my pc only cost me 10-15$ a piece.  I think the cpu fan was 30$ (?).  I was told it was a good deal by friends anyways  

Maybe a water cooled system?  Dunno how effective those are.

Hi Lickitung, this is a case of exhumation of a topic that is almost one year old . I think that now everything is working again or everything is burned (and probably is burned because endosphere is disappeared )

What you said about the case is right, anyway there are good and bad cases, usually the top brands (of cases) make a serious study of the air flows into the case, recently I spotted one that has a strange placing of the components inside, everything based on the concept that hot air goes up, a very strange project... Cooling with air is simpler but has a limit, here even with a massive copper cooler on the CPU, an exact placing of all the fans of the case, the temperature of my CPU doesn't go down 50 Celsius and fires up to 65 at full load ( Q6600 overclocked from 2.4 to 3.0 Ghz ). Now they have nice and even simple water cooling systems, maybe I'll try one when I'll build the next Computer ( in a couple of years probably )

____________

CaptSnaz wrote: [View Post]

Grab a regular fan, stick it on the table, point it at the open case and keep the innards cool that way. It may make you a little uncomfortable, but at least you'll be able to function.  (CaptSnaz)

I forgot: Please don't do that, it won't work, what Lickitung says is true.

How could it work ?

-Buy a massive block of ice
-Put it between the fan and the open case
-Crank the fan and the computer

or

-Buy or build a Stirling engine
-Stick the piston side on the hot component into the case
-Connect the wheel of the Stirling engine to a fan
-Buy a massive block of ice
-Put it between the fan and the open case
-Turn on the computer, spin the wheel cranking the Stirling Engine

or

-Buy or build a Stirling engine
-Stick the piston side on the hot component into the case
-Connect the wheel of the Stirling engine to a fan
-Buy a massive block of ice
-Put it between the fan and the open case
-Place a bucket under the block of ice, connect a tube at the bottom of it and make it flow on the other side of the Stirling engine
-Turn on the computer, spin the wheel cranking the Stirling Engine

enjoy

  You could even use another Stirling engine in reverse mode in order to recreate the ice   ... Ok, I stop it  

____________

Tormie wrote: [View Post]

Hi Lickitung, this is a case of exhumation of a topic that is almost one year old . I think that now everything is working again or everything is burned (and probably is burned because endosphere is disappeared )

wow, that's wierd.. logged in from NC and it showed this was a new topic, I didn't bother to check the date of the post.  Glad to hear I was right about the chasis stuff tho :3